Gaiman & Rowling
Feb. 4th, 2025 08:11 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dannipersonI need to spend less time on Reddit. It really can be a cesspool.
It's really tragic when beloved creators turn out to be awful people, and the Neil Gaiman subreddit has been having a TIME of the recent allegations and news stories.
I'm not the biggest Neil Gaiman fan. I've read Coraline and Good Omens. I've watched (and loved) the movies Stardust and Coraline, and the shows Good Omens and Sandman. I've had other of his works on my never-ending to-read list for years.
I may still read them. Between me and my partner we own most of, if not all of, his works.
Really, when it came down to it, I thought JRK would be my only real "can't let it go" author. But even though I'm not half as attached to Gaiman's works as Rowling's...I've loved enough of his works enough to want more.
And really, being a Potterhead in 2025 means I've had plenty of practice being told I'm a bad person for still loving Harry Potter. I can't even bear to really stop supporting her monetarily, because of just what the universe means to me. Universal Studios will always be my #1 pick for vacation destination just to visit the Wizarding World. I still want new, interesting versions of the books I love.
I can justify it better with Rowling. Harry Potter has been a part of my life for my whole life. The books were published in the U.S. in 1998, I believe...I was 6 years old then. I'd always been a bookworm, and yet I'd never devoured books like I did the Harry Potter series.
To this day, they remain the books I've reread the most.
I had a copy of the Sorcerer's Stone so tattered I had to carry it around in two pieces.
The books carried me through awful moments in my life. My father's emotional abuse. My parent's divorce. My father's subsequent decade-long toxic relationship. It got me through the awkwardness of high school, and my early adulthood depression. It was a bright, beautiful, magical world I could escape to when the real world was too gray and dreary and heavy.
More than that, the books introduced me to fandom. And through fandom, I've gained so much.
I remember writing original works between the ages of seven and nine, but fanfiction really pushed my creative side into motion. I truly fell in love with writing when I wrote my first fanfic at the age of thirteen.
Through roleplaying and fanfiction I made friends on the internet, people all over the world. And I credit the internet with taking me away from the small-mindedness of small town Southern life and ideals. Would I be half as open-minded or knowledgeable as I am now without those experiences?
For all that my relationship to fandom is strained and confused right now, it's always been such a big part of my life. I'm thirty-two (I'll be thirty-three in May), and I've been in fandom for over half my life. Even in the times it was less prominent, the tether was always there, holding me to it. I still considered myself part of it, even when I was away.
The Wizarding World has been too big through too much of my life for me to walk away from it. Even when people act as if I'm a villain for it. As if my inability to leave something so important to me makes me a monster.
Perhaps that experience is why I'm so...defensive, I guess, about Gaiman's works. There are people in that community who are lifelong fans. People who don't want to stop loving his work just because he's a piece of shit.
And I've tasted enough of his works to know I'd love them all, or at least a great deal of them.
I've experienced the current vitriol against Gaiman fans myself when it comes to being a Potterhead. And, to be fair, it's all still fresh and new for Gaiman, whereas we've had years of Rowling being a TERF.
I have no love for Neil Gaiman, and no grace. But I do have respect for his work still. I read Coraline in school, maybe in junior high? It's one of the few school-assigned reading I actually enjoyed.
The terrible truth of it is: awful people can create awesome art.
....
That's the trouble as of this morning.
From one (annoying) Redditor:
This Redditor has been vehement across posts downplaying any defense of his works. And, while annoying, I found this one to be outright offensive.
Do we really only consider things "art" if they're of a certain "value"? And who decides those values?
I (foolishly) responded:
Neil Gaiman is a bad person, and so everything he's ever done must be bad, too. Right?
People hate him so much, and rightfully so, but now everything he's touched is poison instead of gold.
I'll not defend a person like Neil Gaiman, not in the least, not for a thing. But he isn't his works. His works aren't him. Me rereading (or rewatching) Coraline isn't forgiveness of Gaiman. It isn't support, or mercy, or anything but a girl with a book (or movie) she enjoys.
....
Do you know, I actually really liked the Cormoran Strike series Rowling wrote? I forget what book I stopped at. I just know the next book, the one I'd been really excited for, turned out to be one she loudly and proudly displayed her TERF-erism. I couldn't bring myself to read that one, or even reread the other ones. I ended up donating the books I had to an independent bookshop.
Despite my partner's (and others') ravings about Enders's Game, I've not been able to bring myself to read it. For a while, it was because I knew how terrible Orson Scott Card is. Now...now it hangs around on my TBR for one day, maybe. If I have the time or energy for it. If I have the stomach for it.
I bought The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley ages ago. Then I found out how awful she was. I never did get around to reading the book. I still really wanted to, but I felt too guilty to actually open it. Do I still own it, or did I donate it, too? I can't remember now.
....
It's all so individual and personal. I can't imagine begrudging people their enjoyment of music or movies or books or whatever else.
I really like Michael Jackson's music. Did you know that?
The idea of him as a person makes me sick. I'm glad he's dead. But his music? Wow, his music. "Thriller" is forever a good time, especially around Halloween. "The Way You Make Me Feel" is a longtime favorite.
Elvis, too.
You'd have a harder time of prying my favorite music away from me than books, I think. Music is in my soul.
My partner can't watch Mel Gibson movies.
....
Really, I guess people need a target. They need someone to blame. Other, regular people are easier to hit than celebrities. They have to know, deep down, that we're not the enemy. Right?
Of course, I'm a fan of all sorts of morbid, strange, dark, unforgivable things.
Another Reddit post I saw yesterday was a screenshot from the teenagers subreddit, where this teen group shunned their friend for being a "proshipper" and among this person's list of crimes was "watching Saw and other horror films for fun."
I was watching horror films practically out of the womb. I read Flowers in the Attic before the age of 10. At 11 I discovered fanfiction and dove into the vast Snarry ocean, many of which were darkfics or otherwise containing "problematic" material.
Maybe that's part of what makes it easier for me. I've always known the difference between fiction and reality. I've always been able to set things apart. The actors are not the characters, are not the movies. Authors are not their creations.
V.C. Andrews was not locked in an attic, did not fall in love with her brother, and I doubt she actually promoted such events and behaviors.
....
I still have friends on Facebook who share things like "if you're still a Potterhead, fuck off". I'm surprised they haven't unfriended me yet. Maybe because they know me, and I'm an exception.
I had a fandom friend block me on Discord for not banning people from talking about monetarily supporting Rowling.
There's been years to adjust to how terrible JKR is, and the extreme opinions never died, but it doesn't feel quite as...I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. Maybe I'm numb to it. Maybe we've all settled into our respective stances.
It's still fresh and new for the Gaiman fandom.
I do wonder why these new haters don't leave the Neil Gaiman subreddit. Maybe they feel it's their moral obligation to stamp down on any lingering feelings of affection for anything Gaiman has touched.
As that one Redditor said under another comment:
They, at least, are there to squash and stomp across any remaining fans.
It's sad to me that people can't separate it. That people can't be allowed to love what they love, lest they be accused of supporting awful people.
Maybe it will die down with time. Maybe the haters will trickle out of the subreddit and leave it to the fans. Maybe the extremism will never leave, but everyone will settle into their camps.
In the meantime, maybe I should mute that subreddit for a while. And focus instead of much healthier and saner subreddits like AmItheAsshole.
(AITA for enjoying art created by bad people?)
It's really tragic when beloved creators turn out to be awful people, and the Neil Gaiman subreddit has been having a TIME of the recent allegations and news stories.
I'm not the biggest Neil Gaiman fan. I've read Coraline and Good Omens. I've watched (and loved) the movies Stardust and Coraline, and the shows Good Omens and Sandman. I've had other of his works on my never-ending to-read list for years.
I may still read them. Between me and my partner we own most of, if not all of, his works.
Really, when it came down to it, I thought JRK would be my only real "can't let it go" author. But even though I'm not half as attached to Gaiman's works as Rowling's...I've loved enough of his works enough to want more.
And really, being a Potterhead in 2025 means I've had plenty of practice being told I'm a bad person for still loving Harry Potter. I can't even bear to really stop supporting her monetarily, because of just what the universe means to me. Universal Studios will always be my #1 pick for vacation destination just to visit the Wizarding World. I still want new, interesting versions of the books I love.
I can justify it better with Rowling. Harry Potter has been a part of my life for my whole life. The books were published in the U.S. in 1998, I believe...I was 6 years old then. I'd always been a bookworm, and yet I'd never devoured books like I did the Harry Potter series.
To this day, they remain the books I've reread the most.
I had a copy of the Sorcerer's Stone so tattered I had to carry it around in two pieces.
The books carried me through awful moments in my life. My father's emotional abuse. My parent's divorce. My father's subsequent decade-long toxic relationship. It got me through the awkwardness of high school, and my early adulthood depression. It was a bright, beautiful, magical world I could escape to when the real world was too gray and dreary and heavy.
More than that, the books introduced me to fandom. And through fandom, I've gained so much.
I remember writing original works between the ages of seven and nine, but fanfiction really pushed my creative side into motion. I truly fell in love with writing when I wrote my first fanfic at the age of thirteen.
Through roleplaying and fanfiction I made friends on the internet, people all over the world. And I credit the internet with taking me away from the small-mindedness of small town Southern life and ideals. Would I be half as open-minded or knowledgeable as I am now without those experiences?
For all that my relationship to fandom is strained and confused right now, it's always been such a big part of my life. I'm thirty-two (I'll be thirty-three in May), and I've been in fandom for over half my life. Even in the times it was less prominent, the tether was always there, holding me to it. I still considered myself part of it, even when I was away.
The Wizarding World has been too big through too much of my life for me to walk away from it. Even when people act as if I'm a villain for it. As if my inability to leave something so important to me makes me a monster.
Perhaps that experience is why I'm so...defensive, I guess, about Gaiman's works. There are people in that community who are lifelong fans. People who don't want to stop loving his work just because he's a piece of shit.
And I've tasted enough of his works to know I'd love them all, or at least a great deal of them.
I've experienced the current vitriol against Gaiman fans myself when it comes to being a Potterhead. And, to be fair, it's all still fresh and new for Gaiman, whereas we've had years of Rowling being a TERF.
I have no love for Neil Gaiman, and no grace. But I do have respect for his work still. I read Coraline in school, maybe in junior high? It's one of the few school-assigned reading I actually enjoyed.
The terrible truth of it is: awful people can create awesome art.
....
That's the trouble as of this morning.
From one (annoying) Redditor:
One aspect is extremely simple, though: and that's that Gaiman isn't a major literary writer (thus an artist, recognised for literary/artistic value) in the first place. The phrase isn't just being used as non-literal, but manipulatively to boost Gaiman's significance/that of his work - it's apparent when such posts are really falling over themselves to praise his work, and listing him alongside actually significant writers and painters who were abusive etc.
This Redditor has been vehement across posts downplaying any defense of his works. And, while annoying, I found this one to be outright offensive.
Do we really only consider things "art" if they're of a certain "value"? And who decides those values?
I (foolishly) responded:
Okay, just because some works of art might have more "value" or "respect" than others doesn't diminish other types of art. Storytelling is still an artform, even if you don't value or respect it. Books can still be art even if they aren't Pride and Prejudice. We don't have to diminish art just because you have a problem with this particular person and their works.
Neil Gaiman is a bad person, and so everything he's ever done must be bad, too. Right?
People hate him so much, and rightfully so, but now everything he's touched is poison instead of gold.
I'll not defend a person like Neil Gaiman, not in the least, not for a thing. But he isn't his works. His works aren't him. Me rereading (or rewatching) Coraline isn't forgiveness of Gaiman. It isn't support, or mercy, or anything but a girl with a book (or movie) she enjoys.
....
Do you know, I actually really liked the Cormoran Strike series Rowling wrote? I forget what book I stopped at. I just know the next book, the one I'd been really excited for, turned out to be one she loudly and proudly displayed her TERF-erism. I couldn't bring myself to read that one, or even reread the other ones. I ended up donating the books I had to an independent bookshop.
Despite my partner's (and others') ravings about Enders's Game, I've not been able to bring myself to read it. For a while, it was because I knew how terrible Orson Scott Card is. Now...now it hangs around on my TBR for one day, maybe. If I have the time or energy for it. If I have the stomach for it.
I bought The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley ages ago. Then I found out how awful she was. I never did get around to reading the book. I still really wanted to, but I felt too guilty to actually open it. Do I still own it, or did I donate it, too? I can't remember now.
....
It's all so individual and personal. I can't imagine begrudging people their enjoyment of music or movies or books or whatever else.
I really like Michael Jackson's music. Did you know that?
The idea of him as a person makes me sick. I'm glad he's dead. But his music? Wow, his music. "Thriller" is forever a good time, especially around Halloween. "The Way You Make Me Feel" is a longtime favorite.
Elvis, too.
You'd have a harder time of prying my favorite music away from me than books, I think. Music is in my soul.
My partner can't watch Mel Gibson movies.
....
Really, I guess people need a target. They need someone to blame. Other, regular people are easier to hit than celebrities. They have to know, deep down, that we're not the enemy. Right?
Of course, I'm a fan of all sorts of morbid, strange, dark, unforgivable things.
Another Reddit post I saw yesterday was a screenshot from the teenagers subreddit, where this teen group shunned their friend for being a "proshipper" and among this person's list of crimes was "watching Saw and other horror films for fun."
I was watching horror films practically out of the womb. I read Flowers in the Attic before the age of 10. At 11 I discovered fanfiction and dove into the vast Snarry ocean, many of which were darkfics or otherwise containing "problematic" material.
Maybe that's part of what makes it easier for me. I've always known the difference between fiction and reality. I've always been able to set things apart. The actors are not the characters, are not the movies. Authors are not their creations.
V.C. Andrews was not locked in an attic, did not fall in love with her brother, and I doubt she actually promoted such events and behaviors.
....
I still have friends on Facebook who share things like "if you're still a Potterhead, fuck off". I'm surprised they haven't unfriended me yet. Maybe because they know me, and I'm an exception.
I had a fandom friend block me on Discord for not banning people from talking about monetarily supporting Rowling.
There's been years to adjust to how terrible JKR is, and the extreme opinions never died, but it doesn't feel quite as...I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. Maybe I'm numb to it. Maybe we've all settled into our respective stances.
It's still fresh and new for the Gaiman fandom.
I do wonder why these new haters don't leave the Neil Gaiman subreddit. Maybe they feel it's their moral obligation to stamp down on any lingering feelings of affection for anything Gaiman has touched.
As that one Redditor said under another comment:
I don't want to let his fandom wriggle out of their part in this, is why. It's long overdue that 'geeky' communities get some disinfecting sunlight shone on them, and become healthier spaces. This is in part about fandom dynamics, those that fed Gaiman, the very aggressive attempts to silence any criticism, the atmosphere where victims felt unable to speak out. Sandman isn't good and has always been obviously misogynistic: and that's exactly why a lot of Gaiman's male fans liked it, being told what they wanted to hear.
They, at least, are there to squash and stomp across any remaining fans.
It's sad to me that people can't separate it. That people can't be allowed to love what they love, lest they be accused of supporting awful people.
Maybe it will die down with time. Maybe the haters will trickle out of the subreddit and leave it to the fans. Maybe the extremism will never leave, but everyone will settle into their camps.
In the meantime, maybe I should mute that subreddit for a while. And focus instead of much healthier and saner subreddits like AmItheAsshole.
(AITA for enjoying art created by bad people?)
no subject
Date: 2025-02-04 03:40 pm (UTC)I think with books especially, I find it easier to separate the work from the author than say, an actor whose face you would still see on the screen for 2 hours but at this point what HP has given me is lifelong friends and a better understanding of others (members of the LGBTQIA community for example). I think I'm just not as loud about it in non-welcoming spaces.
So yeah, probably stepping away from a place that is upsetting is probably best, at least for a while. *hugs*